YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentation
User:
afbach
Date: 11/10/2011 12:08 pm
Date: 11/10/2011 12:08 pm
Views: 755
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Guess there's a dustup over after MacTech:
http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/2266/how-to-talk-dirty
I think JT suggested that ingy.net [1] got banned from YAPCs for
showing a bikini (or something) so this might be something to think
about. From the sound of it, seemed like a good framework for a talk
but ...
--
a
[1]
saw one of his presentations at YAPC:: Chicago and the fellow is
unhinged (in a good way) but holding something "inappopriate" against
him is a bit like beating a puppy.
Andy Bach,
afbach@gmail.com
608 658-1890 cell
608 261-5738 wk
http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/2266/how-to-talk-dirty
I think JT suggested that ingy.net [1] got banned from YAPCs for
showing a bikini (or something) so this might be something to think
about. From the sound of it, seemed like a good framework for a talk
but ...
--
a
[1]
saw one of his presentations at YAPC:: Chicago and the fellow is
unhinged (in a good way) but holding something "inappopriate" against
him is a bit like beating a puppy.
Andy Bach,
afbach@gmail.com
608 658-1890 cell
608 261-5738 wk
Re: YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentation
User:
jt
Date: 11/10/2011 2:23 pm
Date: 11/10/2011 2:23 pm
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Rating: 0
This sort of thing infuriates me. There was no sexual content what-so-ever to this talk. Instead, he was calling attention to something that many people already knew about, which is to say poorly named Apple APIs. Sure there was innuendo, but it wasn't directed at her, and she admitted in her open letter that she figured the content of the talk would be "inappropriate", and chose to attend anyway just so she could complain about it afterward.
I don't want to run a conference where we have to be worried about whether someone will be offended by something mundane like this. Fuck em if they can't take a joke. Instead, what we need to worry about is that everyone is treated fairly, nobody is harassed, antagonized, or singled out. Everything else is a matter for the police to handle, not us.
YAPC is a social conference, it's about having fun. While showing scantily clad women is certainly not what the conference is about and not something we condone, we also aren't going to police every joke someone wants to tell. We'll pick smart speakers and hope they can tell the difference between appropriate and inappropriate. Does that leave us open to a complaint like this? Sure. However, it also leaves the door open for fun, intelligent people to enjoy themselves rather than worrying about whether they have stepped on anyone's toes. I for one would rather have a sore toe, than a conference devoid of fun.
On Nov 10, 2011, at 12:08 PM, <afbach@gmail.com> wrote:
afbach wrote:
Guess there's a dustup over after MacTech:
http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/2266/how-to-talk-dirty
I think JT suggested that ingy.net [1] got banned from YAPCs for
showing a bikini (or something) so this might be something to think
about. From the sound of it, seemed like a good framework for a talk
but ...
--
a
[1]
saw one of his presentations at YAPC:: Chicago and the fellow is
unhinged (in a good way) but holding something "inappopriate" against
him is a bit like beating a puppy.
Andy Bach,
afbach@gmail.com
608 658-1890 cell
608 261-5738 wk
Madison Area Perl Mongers - MadMongers
http://www.madmongers.org
Re: YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentation
User:
afbach
Date: 11/10/2011 3:51 pm
Date: 11/10/2011 3:51 pm
Views: 0
Rating: 0
Rating: 0
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 2:23 PM, wrote:
> This sort of thing infuriates me. There was no sexual
> content what-so-ever to this talk.
I didn't see it (or read the slides yet:
http://www.mactech.com/sites/default/files/Lee-Ten_Dirty_Words_and_How_to_Use_Them.pdf
[okay, I did - stroke "straddles the line", autorelease "I do, daily",
yank, NSRectFill and at #1 knobThickness ]
) but those who have:
John C. Welch Says:
November 9th, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Humor and lame attempts at entendre that even Beavis would bag on are
two different things. “toolTip”? “insertBacktab”?
nataliepo Says:
I listened to Andy’s talk when I was the only woman in the room at
Cocoaheads NYC a few months ago, and, yes, categorically, it’s a tech
talk that revolves around penis and anal sex jokes. It does not feel
good to be the only woman in the room when somebody’s telling dick
jokes for an hour. I was rendered invisible among my peers.
...
I will say, though, Andy is a genuinely good guy and I believe he has
the best of intentions. Beyond my personal discomfort with the topic
among my peers, my ultimate takeaway from the talk was that there’s a
lot of history and collaborative strife in a language over the years,
and some of it had tongue-in-cheek sexual references, and some of it
was pure coincidence. If the presentation can be toned down, I think
it should be. Regardless, I’ll be back to Cocoaheads NYC soon because
they’re a group of approachable, smart people who I believe will
respond positively to feedback like this.
While the slides (and, one gathers, most of the talk) are dry and do a
good job of looking at odd parts of the API, my sense is he made a
fair effort at B&B one-liners for each one.
Bad idea? Maybe
--
a
Andy Bach,
afbach@gmail.com
608 658-1890 cell
608 261-5738 wk
> This sort of thing infuriates me. There was no sexual
> content what-so-ever to this talk.
I didn't see it (or read the slides yet:
http://www.mactech.com/sites/default/files/Lee-Ten_Dirty_Words_and_How_to_Use_Them.pdf
[okay, I did - stroke "straddles the line", autorelease "I do, daily",
yank, NSRectFill and at #1 knobThickness ]
) but those who have:
John C. Welch Says:
November 9th, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Humor and lame attempts at entendre that even Beavis would bag on are
two different things. “toolTip”? “insertBacktab”?
nataliepo Says:
I listened to Andy’s talk when I was the only woman in the room at
Cocoaheads NYC a few months ago, and, yes, categorically, it’s a tech
talk that revolves around penis and anal sex jokes. It does not feel
good to be the only woman in the room when somebody’s telling dick
jokes for an hour. I was rendered invisible among my peers.
...
I will say, though, Andy is a genuinely good guy and I believe he has
the best of intentions. Beyond my personal discomfort with the topic
among my peers, my ultimate takeaway from the talk was that there’s a
lot of history and collaborative strife in a language over the years,
and some of it had tongue-in-cheek sexual references, and some of it
was pure coincidence. If the presentation can be toned down, I think
it should be. Regardless, I’ll be back to Cocoaheads NYC soon because
they’re a group of approachable, smart people who I believe will
respond positively to feedback like this.
While the slides (and, one gathers, most of the talk) are dry and do a
good job of looking at odd parts of the API, my sense is he made a
fair effort at B&B one-liners for each one.
Bad idea? Maybe
--
a
Andy Bach,
afbach@gmail.com
608 658-1890 cell
608 261-5738 wk
Re: YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentation
User:
jt
Date: 11/10/2011 4:33 pm
Date: 11/10/2011 4:33 pm
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You guys appear to believe that I want a sexually charged line-up of talks at the conference. I don't.
I'm merely expressing that some people are too sensitive (culturally, sexually, intellectually, etc); and we shouldn't forego the many to save the few.
Would I approve a talk with a subject matter such as this? I don't know, it probably depends on how it was presented in it's synopsis to the conference organizers. I can't make assertions based upon something I haven't seen. That said, I'd definitely I'd weigh all the factors. Who's giving the talk? How important is the message they are trying to convey? Will it offend a bunch of people? And so on. This is not a black and white issue.
For example, what if the talk was titled exactly as it was in that article, but it was being presented by Larry Wall? Are you telling me you'd reject Larry Wall's topic? If so, then you have no idea the kind of person Larry Wall is. Just because it has a racy title doesn't mean it's a talk we should reject.
My point is that people take this whole discussion as sides of a fence to sit on, like it was a religion for them or something. This isn't about whether Mohamed is better than Jesus. This is about context. And discussing it out of context as we are is a waste of time.
I'm merely expressing that some people are too sensitive (culturally, sexually, intellectually, etc); and we shouldn't forego the many to save the few.
Would I approve a talk with a subject matter such as this? I don't know, it probably depends on how it was presented in it's synopsis to the conference organizers. I can't make assertions based upon something I haven't seen. That said, I'd definitely I'd weigh all the factors. Who's giving the talk? How important is the message they are trying to convey? Will it offend a bunch of people? And so on. This is not a black and white issue.
For example, what if the talk was titled exactly as it was in that article, but it was being presented by Larry Wall? Are you telling me you'd reject Larry Wall's topic? If so, then you have no idea the kind of person Larry Wall is. Just because it has a racy title doesn't mean it's a talk we should reject.
My point is that people take this whole discussion as sides of a fence to sit on, like it was a religion for them or something. This isn't about whether Mohamed is better than Jesus. This is about context. And discussing it out of context as we are is a waste of time.
Re: YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentation
User:
jt
Date: 11/10/2011 4:50 pm
Date: 11/10/2011 4:50 pm
Views: 3
Rating: 0
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I apologize, if I'm reading too much into what you guys are saying by the way.
If all you're saying is "let's be reasonable", then we're on the same page. But that should probably go without saying, which is why I'm assumed you are trying to make some larger point.
Re: YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentation
User:
jt
Date: 11/10/2011 2:33 pm
Date: 11/10/2011 2:33 pm
Views: 129
Rating: 0
Rating: 0
Just to be clear, I'm not saying we should promote sexually charged events at YAPC. I'm just saying we shouldn't be too overly sensitive and reject ideas simply because they'll be controversial.
This woman knew what the talk was about and that she might be offended and went anyway. That speaks more about her ability to make decisions than the conference organizers' abilities to make decisions.
Re: YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentation
User:
theraccoonbear
Date: 11/10/2011 3:28 pm
Date: 11/10/2011 3:28 pm
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Just my $0.02, but I have read a number of blog posts and news articles in the last year relating to the general level of crudeness/disrespect by attendees and presenters at various IT conferences and the Perl community in particular.
--
Don Smith
don.c.smith@gmail.com
"and don't tell me there isn't one bit of difference between null and space, because that's exactly how much difference there is." Larry Wall
While it's unlikely that someone could offend me personally (even if they tried), I'm sympathetic to the complaints, in particular those from women who have long faced an uphill battle making inroads within IT.
Does making jokes during a presentation bring some levity to what might otherwise be dry and boring? Sure, of course, but these are ostensibly "professional" events and I think erring on the side of not pushing the edge of acceptability would seem, at least to me, to be the way to go.
--
Don Smith
don.c.smith@gmail.com
"and don't tell me there isn't one bit of difference between null and space, because that's exactly how much difference there is." Larry Wall
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 2:33 PM, <jt@plainblack.com> wrote:
jt wrote:
Just to be clear, I'm not saying we should promote sexually charged events at YAPC. I'm just saying we shouldn't be too overly sensitive and reject ideas simply because they'll be controversial.
This woman knew what the talk was about and that she might be offended and went anyway. That speaks more about her ability to make decisions than the conference organizers' abilities to make decisions.
Re: YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentation
User:
jt
Date: 11/11/2011 1:17 am
Date: 11/11/2011 1:17 am
Views: 0
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I need to apologize to you all. While on one hand I'm the first person to stand up for someone being harassed or picked on, I get really angry when I see political correctness run amok.
Instead of words, I see monkey bars in parks that are soft and too low to the ground to be any fun. I see people winning multi-million dollar law suits suing McDonalds because thier coffee is hot, but wasn't labeled hot when they spill it on themselves. In short, I want to see the fun smart people that suck the marrow out of life, but when this sort of stuff comes up I see people sucking the fun out of life instead.
Anyway, I'm sorry for turning this into an argument rather than a discussion. I'm sorry for being brutish and bull-headed on this topic.
Re: YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentation
User:
afbach
Date: 11/11/2011 11:21 am
Date: 11/11/2011 11:21 am
Views: 167
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Rating: 0
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:17 AM, wrote:
> Anyway, I'm sorry for turning this into an argument rather than a
> discussion. I'm sorry for being brutish and bull-headed on this topic.
Hmm, did your wife get a hold of the thread? ;->
I was just starting the talk from what I thought was an interesting
conf. "line crossed?" discussion. I certainly didn't think you'd
nefarious plans for turning YAPC::NA to YAPC::NA.XXX (though, if we
offer a up a Visions/Rising Sun tour ...). I thought you saying you
were going to ask ingy back was a good thing, the guy's a genius,
funny and probably dangerous but that's a good thing. I doubt, from
the slides/synopsis, that anybody'd think Andy's talk would be a real
problem, but everybody was wrong. RectFill/stroke/yank jokes, on the
other hand - most folks'd say "er, not at *this* conference" even if
it was Larry. Just thought we should talk about it.
By the same spirit of "where I'm coming from" though, I get a bit
tweaked when I hear the "PC/Macdonalds coffee/monkey bars" blather
too, as if those were a single event. The coffee wasn't just hot, it
gave her 2nd degree burns, PC is just the whack word(s) used to avoid
discussion about a particular specific topic and if you think lowering
the monkey bars or putting down wood chips vs concrete is a problem
... there's plenty of high places and hard surfaces left for kids to
learn those object lessons.
Just saying ...
--
a
Andy Bach,
afbach@gmail.com
608 658-1890 cell
608 261-5738 wk
> Anyway, I'm sorry for turning this into an argument rather than a
> discussion. I'm sorry for being brutish and bull-headed on this topic.
Hmm, did your wife get a hold of the thread? ;->
I was just starting the talk from what I thought was an interesting
conf. "line crossed?" discussion. I certainly didn't think you'd
nefarious plans for turning YAPC::NA to YAPC::NA.XXX (though, if we
offer a up a Visions/Rising Sun tour ...). I thought you saying you
were going to ask ingy back was a good thing, the guy's a genius,
funny and probably dangerous but that's a good thing. I doubt, from
the slides/synopsis, that anybody'd think Andy's talk would be a real
problem, but everybody was wrong. RectFill/stroke/yank jokes, on the
other hand - most folks'd say "er, not at *this* conference" even if
it was Larry. Just thought we should talk about it.
By the same spirit of "where I'm coming from" though, I get a bit
tweaked when I hear the "PC/Macdonalds coffee/monkey bars" blather
too, as if those were a single event. The coffee wasn't just hot, it
gave her 2nd degree burns, PC is just the whack word(s) used to avoid
discussion about a particular specific topic and if you think lowering
the monkey bars or putting down wood chips vs concrete is a problem
... there's plenty of high places and hard surfaces left for kids to
learn those object lessons.
Just saying ...
--
a
Andy Bach,
afbach@gmail.com
608 658-1890 cell
608 261-5738 wk
Re: YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentation
User:
esayward
Date: 11/11/2011 11:46 am
Date: 11/11/2011 11:46 am
Views: 0
Rating: 0
Rating: 0
finally.. I'm not the one causing trouble.. ce ce
ce
----- Original Message -----From: afbach@gmail.comTo: admin@wisbin.comSent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:21 AMSubject: [MadTalk] Re: YAPC flamebait - dirty jokes in a conf. presentationafbach wrote:
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:17 AM, wrote:
> Anyway, I'm sorry for turning this into an argument rather than a
> discussion. I'm sorry for being brutish and bull-headed on this topic.
Hmm, did your wife get a hold of the thread? ;->
I was just starting the talk from what I thought was an interesting
conf. "line crossed?" discussion. I certainly didn't think you'd
nefarious plans for turning YAPC::NA to YAPC::NA.XXX (though, if we
offer a up a Visions/Rising Sun tour ...). I thought you saying you
were going to ask ingy back was a good thing, the guy's a genius,
funny and probably dangerous but that's a good thing. I doubt, from
the slides/synopsis, that anybody'd think Andy's talk would be a real
problem, but everybody was wrong. RectFill/stroke/yank jokes, on the
other hand - most folks'd say "er, not at *this* conference" even if
it was Larry. Just thought we should talk about it.
By the same spirit of "where I'm coming from" though, I get a bit
tweaked when I hear the "PC/Macdonalds coffee/monkey bars" blather
too, as if those were a single event. The coffee wasn't just hot, it
gave her 2nd degree burns, PC is just the whack word(s) used to avoid
discussion about a particular specific topic and if you think lowering
the monkey bars or putting down wood chips vs concrete is a problem
... there's plenty of high places and hard surfaces left for kids to
learn those object lessons.
Just saying ...
--
a
Andy Bach,
afbach@gmail.com
608 658-1890 cell
608 261-5738 wk
Madison Area Perl Mongers - MadMongers
http://www.madmongers.org
